What is "Gaming"?

[robert hode]

New guy question...
I'm new to this sport and want to start off on the right foot.
Can you give some examples of in "X" situation this would be considered "adapting" and that would be considered "gaming"?
Do most COF's state what equipment is and is not allowed, and if certain equipment is allowed, how it can be used?

[MichaelV]

New guy question...
I'm new to this sport and want to start off on the right foot.
Can you give some examples of in "X" situation this would be considered "adapting" and that would be considered "gaming"?
Do most COF's state what equipment is and is not allowed, and if certain equipment is allowed, how it can be used?

Most of the time shooters ''do right' by trying to get into the position or work in the area they are given but sometimes someone will try to 'game' which is taking advantage of a technicality that clearly wasn't intended... such as if the stage call's that you must shoot prone and not let your bipod touch the ground, it's gaming if someone places a piece of paper between the bipod and the ground and says "well the bipod is not touching the ground".

There are all different degrees of gaming and every match director will have different levels of tolerance to an 'adaption' of the rules, since it's their match. (Hence the lively discussion here.)

[AR15barrels]

if the stage call's that you must shoot prone and not let your bipod touch the ground, it's gaming if someone places a piece of paper between the bipod and the ground and says "well the bipod is not touching the ground"

Or a shooting mat. ;)

[robert hode]

I need all the help I can get to get hits, but I would like to score my points based on the "spirit & intent" of the rules, not on a splitting hairs narrow definition of the rules.

[MichaelV]

I need all the help I can get to get hits, but I would like to score my points based on the "spirit & intent" of the rules, not on a splitting hairs narrow definition of the rules.

Well after you shoot a few years against Randall, you'll change your tune.. hahahhaha.

[buffybuster]

Most often "gaming" occurs when there is latitude/leeway on the interpretation of the stage instructions.
For example:
Instructions: "Stage must be shot in the seated position."
Intent: The stage is configured so the shooter can shoot the stage in the conventional seated firing position (what you were taught in basic).
Gamer: Can be shot by any method as long as my butt in on the ground.......so I'll sit and put my rucksack in front to support the rifle.....etc...

Example in other shooting disciplines is: There's a 28 round Action pistol stage so the "gamer" loads a 33rd glock mag and draws that from the holster....... rather than doing a reload as intended...

It's a way to win, but it generally leaves a bad taste in those that competed to the intent than by the letter of the instructions. And if the gaming is blatant enough the MD usually alters the instructions for the next match to preclude that particular method but gamers never rest......

[AR15barrels]

Most often "gaming" occurs when there is latitude/leeway on the interpretation of the stage instructions.
For example:
Instructions: "Stage must be shot in the seated position."
Intent: The stage is configured so the shooter can shoot the stage in the conventional seated firing position (what you were taught in basic).
Gamer: Can be shot by any method as long as my butt in on the ground.......so I'll sit and put my rucksack in front to support the rifle.....etc...

Example in other shooting disciplines is: There's a 28 round Action pistol stage so the "gamer" loads a 33rd glock mag and draws that from the holster....... rather than doing a reload as intended...

It's a way to win, but it generally leaves a bad taste in those that competed to the intent than by the letter of the instructions. And if the gaming is blatant enough the MD usually alters the instructions for the next match to preclude that particular method but gamers never rest......

I'm a gamer and I say it's not gaming if it's within the rules.
Now, some match directors do a very good job of defining the rules and others leave much to be interpreted by the shooter.
It's not my fault (as a gamer) that other people don't choose to interpret the rules right to the edge.
The match director can write the rules any way they like.
All they need to do to stop so called "gaming" is to better define the rules.

Vu's example of how to stop ryan's seated position by simply placing a 15" tall board in front of the shooter is a perfect example.

If they say seated is "butt on the ground", then people are going to use packs or rest the rifle on their boots.
If they say seated is "butt on the ground, elbows on knees, no part of the rifle touching anything other than sling, hands, shoulder and face", that closes the interpretation quite a bit.

[rksimple]

I'm a gamer and I say it's not gaming if it's within the rules.
Now, some match directors do a very good job of defining the rules and others leave much to be interpreted by the shooter.
It's not my fault (as a gamer) that other people don't choose to interpret the rules right to the edge.
The match director can write the rules any way they like.
All they need to do to stop so called "gaming" is to better define the rules.

Vu's example of how to stop ryan's seated position by simply placing a 15" tall board in front of the shooter is a perfect example.

If they say seated is "butt on the ground", then people are going to use packs or rest the rifle on their boots.
If they say seated is "butt on the ground, elbows on knees, no part of the rifle touching anything other than sling, hands, shoulder and face", that closes the interpretation quite a bit.

This.

But of course, your seated position would rule out Curtis/James' position:



And this one (on a more serious note)

[robert hode]

I guess gaming is like what they say about what is art and what is porn. ..."I'll know it when I see it".

Anyone got some porn so I can tell if it's art or not?

[wildcard]

According to Webster

Main Entry: ga·mer
Pronunciation: \ˈgā-mər\
Function: noun
Date: 21st century
: Jicko
: one that plays
: person who plays a game outside the spirit of the rules in a competitive field or process



Learn more about "gamer"

Learn more about "gamer" and related topics at Britannica.com

[DirtRacer151]

So what exactly did jicko do to make himself famous? I think that was slightly before my time here.

[buffybuster]

I'm a gamer and I say it's not gaming if it's within the rules.
Now, some match directors do a very good job of defining the rules and others leave much to be interpreted by the shooter.
It's not my fault (as a gamer) that other people don't choose to interpret the rules right to the edge.
The match director can write the rules any way they like.
All they need to do to stop so called "gaming" is to better define the rules.

Vu's example of how to stop ryan's seated position by simply placing a 15" tall board in front of the shooter is a perfect example.

If they say seated is "butt on the ground", then people are going to use packs or rest the rifle on their boots.
If they say seated is "butt on the ground, elbows on knees, no part of the rifle touching anything other than sling, hands, shoulder and face", that closes the interpretation quite a bit.

100% Agreement

[buffybuster]

So what exactly did jicko do to make himself famous? I think that was slightly before my time here.

Quite indescribable... You have see it

"Someone" has pictures of SCPRC '09 but they won't post them.........

[buffybuster]

Gaming is NOT cheating. What it is, Is abiding to the rules/instructions exactly as they are written/spoken.

Jicko sometimes takes that to a whole other level..........

[AR15barrels]

And this one (on a more serious note)

If they want to allow that one, then they can describe seated as: "butt on the ground, no part of the rifle touching anything other than sling, hands, arms, knees, shoulder and face".

[wildcard]

If they want to allow that one, then they can describe seated as: "butt on the ground, no part of the rifle touching anything other than sling, hands, arms, knees, shoulder and face".

Not good enough..
But hands can still touch shoes and elbow can still touch the ground.

[Gnzrme]

I am sure that there was a reason that the photo's were not posted...Maybe someday we will see them....but I think that if you look through some of Mark's (spaniard's) photo's, you mind find some examples....

[bcrich]

Damn, I had no idea what "gaming" was either.

[rksimple]

If they want to allow that one, then they can describe seated as: "butt on the ground, no part of the rifle touching anything other than sling, hands, arms, knees, shoulder and face".

Or maybe just the NRA rules

http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBooks/ ... sr-w05.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They lay it out pretty well.

[buffybuster]

Or maybe just the NRA rules

http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBooks/ ... sr-w05.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They lay it out pretty well.

Killjoy

[robert hode]

I think gaming is like counting cards in blackjack...totally legal but frowned on (as in take you out back and break your kneecaps) by management.

[gme]

When I shoot NRA XC matches, the positions (standing, sitting and prone) are tightly controlled by the rules, which are based on the positions taught in the military, there's not much room for "gaming" which is fine, but in our tactical matches some of the stages might require the shooter fire the stage "any position, any support EXCEPT PRONE" which encourages adaptation by the team, I find it interesting to see how each team finds a solution in a real world scenario, there are other stages which require each team member to engage a plate "offhand" where the shooter really has few options outside of the standard position. It seems to me the more strict the rules are the more specialized the equipment becomes, an NRA match rifle is the ideal tool for the XTC game but is not really a practical rifle, I like the practical element of tactical competitions, less regulation (other that common sense safety) more problem solving, improvising and adapting is at the core of what tactical matches are.
Gary

[DirtRacer151]

I like the practical element of tactical competitions, less regulation (other that common sense safety) more problem solving, improvising and adapting is at the core of what tactical matches are.

My thoughts exactly.


Someone post the picture already!!
Don't leave a brother hanging!!

[Gnzrme]

excellent point Gary...Tactical is definately not a pick you shooting condition, time, position....Its using the equipment that you have and adapting to overcome....(something that I have to learn)

[Teletiger7]

Gaming is NOT cheating. What it is, Is abiding to the rules/instructions exactly as they are written/spoken.

Jicko sometimes takes that to a whole other level..........

I think the name they gave that position was "frog stance"

[AR15barrels]

Randall... You ever thought about offering your ranger to shoot off of for a stage?

We can shoot off the ranger, just not at angeles.
I get all the brass!

[AR15barrels]

I guess gaming is like what they say about what is art and what is porn. ..."I'll know it when I see it".

According to Webster

Main Entry: ga·mer
Pronunciation: \ˈgā-mər\
Function: noun
Date: 21st century
: Jicko
: one that plays
: person who plays a game outside the spirit of the rules in a competitive field or process

So what exactly did jicko do to make himself famous?

I think the name they gave that position was "frog stance"

This is Jicko's idea of seated:

[Teletiger7]

^^^ that version of "seated" does not involve actually sitting.

Sitting is a rest position supported by the buttocks or thighs where the torso is more or less upright.

[phish]

Did not need to post that first pic...

[AR15barrels]

Did not need to post that first pic...

Sorry, I just cut and pasted the IMG tags from a PM that Wes sent me...

[DirtRacer151]

LMAO ok now thats gaming!!

[wildcard]

That was classic!

But the defining moment was what happened when he was told "no elbows on the ground."

[Gnzrme]

Just be thankful that Kurtis wasn't there...I am sure he would have had some choice comments

[DirtRacer151]

Just be thankful that Kurtis wasn't there...I am sure he would have had some choice comments

or actions

[AR15barrels]

the defining moment was what happened when he was told "no elbows on the ground."

You mean when he unrolled his shooting mat and put it between his elbows and the ground and then said "my elbows are not on the ground now"...

[oni]

I don't see how that could pass ANY definition of seated.

[Connor P Price]

What, none of you guys sit like that?

[AR15barrels]

Or maybe just the NRA rules

http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBooks/ ... sr-w05.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They lay it out pretty well.

Your rifle-on-boots position is not NRA legal.

5.1 The Ground - All references to "the ground" in the following position Rules are to be construed as applying
to the surface of the firing point, floor, or shooting mats, and platforms as are customarily used on shooting ranges.

5.2 Artificial Support - Any supporting surface except the ground not specifically authorized for use in the
Rules for the position prescribed. Digging of elbow or heel holes at the firing points which form artificial support for
the elbows, arms, or legs is prohibited. Use of artificial support is prohibited except as individually authorized by
NRA for a physically handicapped shooter.

5.3 Position of Rifle Butt - In all positions, the butt of the rifle must be held against the front of the shoulder
on the outside of the shooting coat or shirt and must not touch the ground.

5.10 Sitting - Weight of the body supported on the buttocks and the feet or ankles, no other portion of the
body touching the ground. The rifle will be supported by both hands and one shoulder only. Arms may rest on the
legs at any point above the ankles.

First, you don't have the rifle against your shoulder.
Secondly, the butt of the rifle is artifically supported by your boot.

[264Charlie]

“finding an advantage”

This should be used to help you win

[rksimple]

That Jicko picture is supposed to be kneeling, not seated.

[rksimple]

Your rifle-on-boots position is not NRA legal.



First, you don't have the rifle against your shoulder.
Secondly, the butt of the rifle is artifically supported by your boot.

I can rest the stock on my knee, but getting the butt into my shoulder would be more than difficult. But supporting on my feet, while not NRA legal, is not artificial support.

[wildcard]

I can rest the stock on my knee, but getting the butt into my shoulder would be more than difficult.

That just means you need a custom buttstock to allow you to do it.

[rksimple]

That just means you need a custom buttstock to allow you to do it.

There it is. As the rules become tighter, more equipment gaming takes place. That actually wouldn't be too hard...

The idea of shooting over something (like a 15" board) is good because it replicates what you often find in the field. Back to the drawing board I guess. We'll see what I can come up with before next year. Guaranteed, if it works, it'll be outlawed by the following year.

[vu308]

LMAO ok now thats gaming!!

HELL NO IT ISNT! He was "not" touching the ground. He was on a piece of cloth.


Gaming is simple: It is basically a person that is going to circumvent the rules and not shoot the COF in the spirit in which it was written.

Or pull a Jiko.

=)

[vu308]

I would like to also add that while a lot of folks did write me about now what is coined as the "so cal sitting" position, it was within the rules.

Since it was a big deal to a lot of shooters, we did some research by contacting other MDs around the country that run big events to see what their thoughts were. This simple statement sums it up "the idea of the sitting position is to get you over something that you can't shoot with the prone" But, it was within our rules and we got caught with our pants down. Shit happens, live and learn.

Personally, the day I have to start writing rules and COFs like a lawyer, I will just simply quit doing what I do. It is less heartache and less hate mail by both sides. One that says they were being creative, and the other saying they were gaming.

We can debate this topic until we are blue in the face and will have to agree to disagree.

[wildcard]

I would like to also add that while a lot of folks did write me about now what is coined as the "so cal sitting" position, it was within the rules.

Funny part about this is that the so cal crew calls it the Ryan Kerr sitting position

[DirtRacer151]

most of us shot in that posistion for the very first time at TBRC. We were practicing the night before in the living room at Charlie's brothers house. Anyone who had a problem with it could've very easily done the same thing with little to no practice and still done well.

BTW, after Ryan posted the rules yesterday I went home and did some experimenting. I can successfully duplicate the posistion with hands supported by knees and stock in shoulder. It was 15" from the ground too

Headed to the range tonight to stretch out a little

[tacticalintervention]

Vu, best way I have seen to combat the getting around rules thing, is instead of giving a "you must shoot seated", make them shoot behind a barrier that demands they modify to what ever position you want them to. Kyle Lamb cut up a barrier with holes at different heights, that is easy to build. You say shoot through hole number what ever and the problem demands the position. I bet I can find the plans if you want them. It should keep the blood pressure down for all.

[Connor P Price]

Ryan, maybe meet up with this girl to work out your next seated position.

[DirtRacer151]

Funny part about this is that the so cal crew calls it the Ryan Kerr sitting position

Karma sutra!!