Humbling Desert Target Practice

William · Post by **William** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:50 am

Went out with friend to my favorite secret spot over the weekend and set up a paper target at 200 for AR's and 12" round metal target at 800 yards.

Last time out it was afternoon and the wind had kicked up already. Was having issues hitting consistently at 600 yards. This time, after having learned how to shoot properly, I missed every shot at 800. 40 rounds. Bupkes. Couple inches high, left, right, low, two feet right, 3 feet right, a foot left -- everything but on the plate. The wind was fairly calm when we started, but then really started to whip up towards the end. I was shooting 168 grain .308's. My buddy was shooting 150 grain, but when he switched to 175's, he managed to land two.

We were both rock solid with bipods and rear bags.

Does it sound like shooter error here? At the range where wind is usually light and/or consistent, I have no problem hitting 600 every time. In the open desert at the foot of the mountain, it just seems like we're shooting into a maelstrom.

Chevroletkid88 · Post by **Chevroletkid88** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:31 am

Could possibly be the bullets. Those 168s don't make it out far distances. When your buddy was shooting those 175s he was making hits because those bullets have a better bc and can make it out to 800 solid.

buffybuster · Post by **buffybuster** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:16 am

With a .308Win, while a 600yd shot is quite manageable, a 800yd shot, even though just 200yds farther becomes much more difficult, as you've found. Also your target size is ~1.5MOA, which at that range with a .308Win can be a challenge. The mirage, being off your DOPE by 1MOA and any misjudgment of the wind (very easy to do) will put you off the plate. In desert conditions, those 168's were probably OK to 800yds (stability wise) but not really bucking the wind very well.

You might want to put a larger plate (3MOA) out there to get on target and see what the wind is doing, then transition to the small plate.

William · Post by **William** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:42 pm

Chevroletkid88 wrote:Could possibly be the bullets. Those 168s don't make it out far distances. When your buddy was shooting those 175s he was making hits because those bullets have a better bc and can make it out to 800 solid.

I think you're right (can't be me!). And at the particular spot the winds seem to move around the clock from minute to minute from nothing to strong gusts. I thought I'd be having those issues at 1000 though, not at 800.

William · Post by **William** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:48 pm

buffybuster wrote:With a .308Win, while a 600yd shot is quite manageable, a 800yd shot, even though just 200yds farther becomes much more difficult, as you've found. Also your target size is ~1.5MOA, which at that range with a .308Win can be a challenge. The mirage, being off your DOPE by 1MOA and any misjudgment of the wind (very easy to do) will put you off the plate. In desert conditions, those 168's were probably OK to 800yds (stability wise) but not really bucking the wind very well.

You might want to put a larger plate (3MOA) out there to get on target and see what the wind is doing, then transition to the small plate.

The one I've been using is the R500... do you think thinner plate will take the hits ok at that distance? Hate to lug a much heavier one out there. Guess it's not much of an issue as they're not terribly expensive -- just replace it after a bit.

DirtRacer151 · Post by **DirtRacer151** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:38 pm

We use 3/8" mild steel from 700 on out. It doesn't get very beat up and its cheap. If it does get some craters you shouldn't have to worry about ricochets at those distances

AR500 on anything closer

William · Post by **William** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:48 pm

DirtRacer151 wrote:We use 3/8" mild steel from 700 on out. It doesn't get very beat up and its cheap. If it does get some craters you shouldn't have to worry about ricochets at those distances

AR500 on anything closer

aha!

Mad minute · Post by **Mad minute** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:29 pm

i was using mild steel inside of 600 and recycling it when it got too boogered up. finally got some ar500 for the close stuff. i have 2- 14" X 1/2" mild steel circles that dent a little past 600.

dont feel bad william. i had the same experience this weekend. took an old friend from the east coast out to my super secret spot. checked my zero. used my dope, shooter ap, and didnt hit squat. i only had 25 rounds of 260rem for the day. one hit at 600meters. i gave up and switched to handgun for the day.

William · Post by **William** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:34 pm

Mad minute wrote:i was using mild steel inside of 600 and recycling it when it got too boogered up. finally got some ar500 for the close stuff. i have 2- 14" X 1/2" mild steel circles that dent a little past 600.

dont feel bad william. i had the same experience this weekend. took an old friend from the east coast out to my super secret spot. checked my zero. used my dope, shooter ap, and didnt hit squat. i only had 25 rounds of 260rem for the day. one hit at 600meters. i gave up and switched to handgun for the day.

Desert?

264Charlie · Post by **264Charlie** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:50 pm

William, If you want to go shooting some time let me know. At that distance it could be you, gun, or the bullets going sub sonic.

At 800 a lot of stuff comes into play that will make you miss. Improper breathing, trigger pull, rifle can't, wind, ammo and rifle accuracy. Was it one or all them is hard to tell unless you have someone watching over your shoulder.

What size target were you shooting at 600?

If you are shooting a 1.5 MOA target at 800 you should be about to keep all your rounds on a 1" dot at 100. Can you do that if you get up between each shots?

What does you ballistic calc tell you? Are your bullets supersonic at 750, 800 and 850. You will need a slight margin of error. I would hope of at least 50 over.

Are you shooting reloads or factory ammo?

Mad minute · Post by **Mad minute** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:19 pm

Yes desert

William · Post by **William** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:26 pm

264Charlie wrote:William, If you want to go shooting some time let me know. At that distance it could be you, gun, or the bullets going sub sonic.

At 800 a lot of stuff comes into play that will make you miss. Improper breathing, trigger pull, rifle can't, wind, ammo and rifle accuracy. Was it one or all them is hard to tell unless you have someone watching over your shoulder.

What size target were you shooting at 600?

If you are shooting a 1.5 MOA target at 800 you should be about to keep all your rounds on a 1" dot at 100. Can you do that if you get up between each shots?

What does you ballistic calc tell you? Are your bullets supersonic at 750, 800 and 850. You will need a slight margin of error. I would hope of at least 50 over.

Are you shooting reloads or factory ammo?

Missed this somehow. Would love to go shooting with you.

You know what? I didn't even really pay attention to cant. Randall put a level into my stock, but I didn't even remember to check it.

Was shooting the same target at 600 as at 800. 12" disk. So 1.43 MOA at 800, right? Should have given me 1 MOA to play with if I can shoot as wel as I think I can.

I can generally do 1/2" at 100 yards getting up between. I haven't measured my MV with the 26" barrel, but 24" barrel shooting 168's should put 168's at just under 1400 fps at 800 yards in the kind of conditions (Summer Mojave) I was shooting in.

Let me know when you plan to go out to shoot some medium long range. You can put me to use as a spotter.

ETA: I think I figured it out. Cheek weld/parallax. Haven't built up my cheek rest yet.

264Charlie · Post by **264Charlie** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:09 am

Hey, OK this is starting to look like more shooter error. One difference when shooting steelunlike paper you have to be within the target size form POI. On paper you can shoot a small group .1 high or .2 low and it still looks good.

.5 MOA on paper is good for a factory gun. Are you hitting the dead center of the target each time? A good way to test this is to but four 1 inch dots on a target and shoot two round per dot standing up with the rifle each time. Do the impacts move around?

A 2 MOA targe is a good size for 600 but not too hard to hit. Now a 1.5 MOA at 800 target is not easy to hit. It would seam that if you shoot .5MOA at 100 you have a 1 MOA margin of error. This is not the case. Firstly you have to factor you "zero shits" at 100 (likely caused by you) don't worry I have the issue too, of .1 to .3 mils. That could be half MOA or better of lost margin. Then a .5MOA gun is likely a 3/4 to 1MOA gun at 800. Why. MV does not really play into much at 100. You can drop powder charges with .3 spread and still shoot 1/4 MOA groups all day. Now at 800 that will cause you 3" of vertical. Breathing is also way more important at distance you can easily move 10" or more by breaking your shots at different points in you breath.

Wind at 800 is not easy with a .308 you will need to make you calls within 1MPH and be changing holds every shot.

William · Post by **William** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:51 pm

10 inches!

There's definitely an elimination process that I need to go through here. I went through your dot cleaning exercises (9 dots twice) and did really well on those so I thought I'd eliminated much of the shooter error already.

What I noticed at 800 is that my elevation was right on almost all the time... things were just shifting around right to left to left to right as if the wind was changing enough between every shot. I'll go verify things at 100 again and then try to shoot on a nice windless or consistent morning.

GforceJunkie · Post by **GforceJunkie** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:19 pm

William wrote: then try to shoot on a nice windless or consistent morning.

At 800-1000, "windless or consistent" doesn't exist. That's the hard part

264Charlie · Post by **264Charlie** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:40 pm

William · Post by **William** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:59 pm

GforceJunkie wrote:
At 800-1000, "windless or consistent" doesn't exist. That's the hard part

*on a bigger target!

Post by **AR15barrels** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:18 pm

William wrote:What I noticed at 800 is that my elevation was right on almost all the time... things were just shifting around right to left to left to right as if the wind was changing enough between every shot.

It does change between shots.
You need to learn to read the mirage and learn how to make small adjustments to your hold in order to account for the wind changes.

You have just found what makes longrange shooting challenging.
800 and beyond is nothing like 600 and closer...

William · Post by **William** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:31 pm

AR15barrels wrote:
It does change between shots.
You need to learn to read the mirage and learn how to make small adjustments to your hold in order to account for the wind changes.

You have just found what makes longrange shooting challenging.
800 and beyond is nothing like 600 and closer...

Fine and dandy, just thought I'd be facing these issues at 1,000 yards, not 800. (When you think about it that is pretty far though)

Post by **Gnzrme** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:43 am

That's the limitation of the bullet/caliber your choosing, but all cartridges face this issue at distance some just less than others

264Charlie · Post by **264Charlie** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:22 am

William, Shooting a .308 running 168s at 800 is real close to shooting a .260 at 1k. Assuming you are shooting a 1.5 MOA target at both distances.

At 800 (shooting a 1.5MOA) target you will need to read the wind with a accuracy of 1MPH to make consistent hits. My .260 needs to be within 1.3 MPH to makes hits. A 30% is not that much when you figure a 1.5 MPH error both shooters will miss.

The key to shooting long range steel is learning how to hedge you bets against the wind using your holds. This could extend you your margin of error to 2MPH. So, someone that is better at this shooting a .308 would have a easier time than someone shooting a raced out .260 doing it the traditional way.

luvtolean · Post by **luvtolean** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:52 am

AR15barrels wrote:
It does change between shots.
You need to learn to read the mirage and learn how to make small adjustments to your hold in order to account for the wind changes.

You have just found what makes longrange shooting challenging.
800 and beyond is nothing like 600 and closer...

+1

With my 6.5Creed, it's all shooting fundamentals until 600, past there to even stay on paper, it's fundamentals, and getting the weather right, and sacrificing a chicken over the reloading bench and and and....

Post by **AR15barrels** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:36 pm

luvtolean wrote:it's all shooting fundamentals until 600, past there to even stay on paper, it's fundamentals, and getting the weather right, and sacrificing a chicken over the reloading bench and and and....

There's your problem...
You are supposed to sacrafice a weasel, not a chicken.

Stoopy · Post by **Stoopy** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:49 pm

Where do I get said weasel? Does it have to be a tactical weasel or a precision weasel?

Post by **AR15barrels** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:02 pm

Stoopy wrote:Where do I get said weasel? Does it have to be a tactical weasel or a precision weasel?

You sacrafice the tactical weasel.
Whatever you do, don't harm a precision weasel.
Precision weasels are the ones that are downrange creating the mirage.
They run back and forth just below your line of sight, check the wind and send up little signals.
Without the precision weasels, you would not have ANY idea what the wind was doing until it starts moving the leaves and grass...

Stoopy · Post by **Stoopy** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:37 pm

AR15barrels wrote:
You sacrafice the tactical weasel.
Whatever you do, don't harm a precision weasel.
Precision weasels are the ones that are downrange creating the mirage.
They run back and forth just below your line of sight, check the wind and send up little signals.
Without the precision weasels, you would not have ANY idea what the wind was doing until it starts moving the leaves and grass...

this is the good info you can't get in a book!

luvtolean · Post by **luvtolean** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:46 pm

Stoopy wrote: this is the good info you can't get in a book!

It's useless.

He didn't tell us where to buy a tactical weasel.

Stoopy · Post by **Stoopy** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:57 pm

luvtolean wrote:
It's useless.

He didn't tell us where to buy a tactical weasel.

you didn't get the PM? :lol:

William · Post by **William** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:15 pm

264Charlie wrote:William, Shooting a .308 running 168s at 800 is real close to shooting a .260 at 1k. Assuming you are shooting a 1.5 MOA target at both distances.

At 800 (shooting a 1.5MOA) target you will need to read the wind with a accuracy of 1MPH to make consistent hits. My .260 needs to be within 1.3 MPH to makes hits. A 30% is not that much when you figure a 1.5 MPH error both shooters will miss.

The key to shooting long range steel is learning how to hedge you bets against the wind using your holds. This could extend you your margin of error to 2MPH. So, someone that is better at this shooting a .308 would have a easier time than someone shooting a raced out .260 doing it the traditional way.

Well I've seen what the wind does to the bullet in person enough now to appreciate it, but... I think I'm going to have to lie in a field or something for an entire day with a wind meter and try to guess what's going on, then verify it to learn. Maybe it's the Leupold vx-III 4-14 that's the problem? I put it out of focus and definitely see mirage, but I just can't see what it's doing. Looking at the target at 800 it was just kind of bubbly even when I knew there were powerful winds out there.

William · Post by **William** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:17 pm

Stoopy wrote: this is the good info you can't get in a book!

Great info you can't get in a book that is cracking me up.

William · Post by **William** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:18 pm

Gnzrme wrote:That's the limitation of the bullet/caliber your choosing, but all cartridges face this issue at distance some just less than others

Good news is: I like a challenge!

William · Post by **William** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:33 pm

Two stray questions:

1. Say you're at a nice comfy 1000 yard range with and everyone has their rifle all locked up on a front and rear rest. You get a couple of sighter shots and then 20 more for record. Among the best shooters, what percentage of shots typically land within ten inches of the bullseye? Are there days where the best shooters will land a very low percentage? Or are they all able to read the wind well enough to stay nicely on paper? (But then again, they have flags at the F-Class matches, don't they).

2. Forgot the other one due to the precision tactical weasels.

264Charlie · Post by **264Charlie** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:47 pm

Depends on the size of the target. Also the set up. It much easier to shoot one round in the wind for four or five contortions than make hits without flags and sighters.

Reading the wind is much harder in terrain vs a square range too. Big target frames allow you to see the wind better.

Come out and shoot with me some time and we will work on it.

Sent from my iPhone.

luvtolean · Post by **luvtolean** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:11 pm

William wrote:Two stray questions:

1. Say you're at a nice comfy 1000 yard range with and everyone has their rifle all locked up on a front and rear rest. You get a couple of sighter shots and then 20 more for record. Among the best shooters, what percentage of shots typically land within ten inches of the bullseye? Are there days where the best shooters will land a very low percentage? Or are they all able to read the wind well enough to stay nicely on paper? (But then again, they have flags at the F-Class matches, don't they).

2. Forgot the other one due to the precision tactical weasels.

In F-Open the best shooters can shoot a clean at 1000yards with good weather, which would be all in 10". More than half of those could be X's, the X Ring is 5". Every shot is a sighter in that game, but the winds change shot-shot.

Setting the benchmark, here's state of the art in Benchrest- http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... 000-yards/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How in the heck they do it, don't ask me...

Post by **AR15barrels** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:25 pm

William wrote:Well I've seen what the wind does to the bullet in person enough now to appreciate it, but... I think I'm going to have to lie in a field or something for an entire day with a wind meter and try to guess what's going on, then verify it to learn.

Unless you can get wind meters up where the bullet is flying, the wind meter won't tell you too much.
Wind speed is lowest as you get closer to the ground.
The wind speed difference at 10ft or even 15ft is entirely different than it is at 4ft off the ground.

When you are looking at the mirage, it will give you a good summary of what the TOTAL wind between you and the target is.
You could have winds blowing left, then right and then left again, all at different rates.
There is mirage at all distances, but you need to learn WHICH mirage to look at.
The most useful thing in mirage is that it shows you a CHANGE in the wind.

So, perhaps you have been shooting and hitting your point of aim with 1 mil of left hold.
The whole time, the mirage is at a nice 10 degree angle.
Suddenly, you notice the mirage is at a 20 degree angle now.
This tells us that the wind just picked up.
You will now need to hold MORE than that 1 mil you were holding before.
Then, before the next shot, the mirage turns into a boil, with no lean to the left or to the right.
That tells us we are in a lull.

Shooting in a boil is tricky too because mirage will change your sight picture and throw your elevation off.

What you want to be doing is firing each shot in SIMILAR conditions to the last one.
If you observe the mirage a while, there will be one type of condition that you see more often than the others.
Call this your "primary" condition.
If you have the option, always shoot in the primary condition...

Post by **AR15barrels** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:29 pm

William wrote:Say you're at a nice comfy 1000 yard range with and everyone has their rifle all locked up on a front and rear rest. You get a couple of sighter shots and then 20 more for record. Among the best shooters, what percentage of shots typically land within ten inches of the bullseye? Are there days where the best shooters will land a very low percentage? Or are they all able to read the wind well enough to stay nicely on paper? (But then again, they have flags at the F-Class matches, don't they).

1000yd f class shoots on a 44" black circle on a 6 foot square target backer board.
It's uncommon for a shot to completely miss the backer board.
You use your spotters to figure out your wind hold after determining your primary wind condition.

760practicalshooter · Post by **760practicalshooter** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:21 pm

AR15barrels wrote:
Unless you can get wind meters up where the bullet is flying, the wind meter won't tell you too much.
Wind speed is lowest as you get closer to the ground.
The wind speed difference at 10ft or even 15ft is entirely different than it is at 4ft off the ground.

When you are looking at the mirage, it will give you a good summary of what the TOTAL wind between you and the target is.
You could have winds blowing left, then right and then left again, all at different rates.
There is mirage at all distances, but you need to learn WHICH mirage to look at.
The most useful thing in mirage is that it shows you a CHANGE in the wind.

So, perhaps you have been shooting and hitting your point of aim with 1 mil of left hold.
The whole time, the mirage is at a nice 10 degree angle.
Suddenly, you notice the mirage is at a 20 degree angle now.
This tells us that the wind just picked up.
You will now need to hold MORE than that 1 mil you were holding before.
Then, before the next shot, the mirage turns into a boil, with no lean to the left or to the right.
That tells us we are in a lull.

Shooting in a boil is tricky too because mirage will change your sight picture and throw your elevation off.

What you want to be doing is firing each shot in SIMILAR conditions to the last one.
If you observe the mirage a while, there will be one type of condition that you see more often than the others.
Call this your "primary" condition.
If you have the option, always shoot in the primary condition...

So isn't common with reading the mirage and gauging the wind out of it to make adjustments out at the furthest wind readings? Meaning where the bullet FPS is slowing and more likely to drift either way.

*If shooting out to 1000yds, making observation of the mirage/wind 600-800 yds to correct for it. Not closer but further away as bullet speed is less affected at closer distance.

Post by **AR15barrels** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:44 pm

760practicalshooter wrote:

So isn't common with reading the mirage and gauging the wind out of it to make adjustments out at the furthest wind readings? Meaning where the bullet FPS is slowing and more likely to drift either way.

*If shooting out to 1000yds, making observation of the mirage/wind 600-800 yds to correct for it. Not closer but further away as bullet speed is less affected at closer distance.

There is no right or wrong answer.
It depends where the wind is changing the most.
Wind near the muzzle changes the course of the bullet.
Wind 2/3 of the way to the target has more effect, but if the wind is light near the target and heavy near the shooter, you need to be watching for shifts in the closer wind...

760practicalshooter · Post by **760practicalshooter** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:48 pm

AR15barrels wrote:
There is no right or wrong answer.
It depends where the wind is changing the most.
Wind near the muzzle changes the course of the bullet.
Wind 2/3 of the way to the target has more effect, but if the wind is light near the target and heavy near the shooter, you need to be watching for shifts in the closer wind...

Makes sense.

My understanding was, say the wind is 10 mph right to left @ 100yds to 400yds it would move the bullet 1" left, and out @ 500-1000 10 mph left to right it will move right 2.5" due to less velocity. Makes sense though as nothing is perfect science.

Post by **AR15barrels** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:47 pm

Ah, but if the wind is blowing one direction at the muzzle, it changes the departure angle of the bullet right away.
Wind 2/3 of the way to the target will then increase or decrease the drift depending on the winds direction and strength.
It's possible for a strong wind near the target to even out a really weak wind near the muzzle if there is not a defined wind midway to the target...

Wind near the muzzle sets the bullets course.
Wind at the target finalizes the bullets course...

264Charlie · Post by **264Charlie** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:05 pm

760practicalshooter wrote:
Makes sense.

My understanding was, say the wind is 10 mph right to left @ 100yds to 400yds it would move the bullet 1" left, and out @ 500-1000 10 mph left to right it will move right 2.5" due to less velocity. Makes sense though as nothing is perfect science.

You have to look at it in triangles. A very small change in direction at the muzzle will equal a huge about on target.

760practicalshooter · Post by **760practicalshooter** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:14 pm

264Charlie wrote:
You have to look at it in triangles. A very small change in direction at the muzzle will equal a huge about on target.

Of course and I agree, but how much force does it take and at what distance to affect it early in flight? IF there is a full value 15mph L2R I would agree it is off course initially.

Sorry OP, not trying to thread jack you! Just an interesting subject.

William · Post by **William** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:22 pm

760practicalshooter wrote:
Of course and I agree, but how much force does it take and at what distance to affect it early in flight? IF there is a full value 15mph L2R I would agree it is off course initially.

Sorry OP, not trying to thread jack you! Just an interesting subject.

It's all great info. The wind is the final frontier here.

William · Post by **William** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:49 pm

264Charlie wrote:Depends on the size of the target. Also the set up. It much easier to shoot one round in the wind for four or five contortions than make hits without flags and sighters.

Reading the wind is much harder in terrain vs a square range too. Big target frames allow you to see the wind better.

Come out and shoot with me some time and we will work on it.

Sent from my iPhone.

Reloading gear and bullets should be here by Friday, then over the next week should have time to learn and load enough for the match, then it's time to start the real work. Please send me a text or email if you plan to head out to the wilderness (will pm you).