Lately there has been talk of people wanting to see different things at the matches. I want to hear what you guys have to say about this. I am in favor if making things more difficult/fun. There is a few problems with this though. To turn up the heat requires more work. We are already stretching our resources as is. This would mean more help before and after matches to help set up and take down and would also mean you guys wont be going home at noon either. I personally am willing to put in the effort and stay later if needs be.

We go pretty easy on you guys with our matches. I would like to see more technical stuff vs the 100yd paper precision BS. I know some of you new guys are thinking that your having a hard time as it is. Just because we make a COF harder or more technical doesn't mean it challenges only you more. I want to start challenging Ryan even! If its harder for you I can assure its harder for everyone. If you shoot a perfect score on a stage because it was easy and it makes you feel good about yourself then we're only cheating you! Chances are everyone thought it was easy and shot perfect scores. Its all in your head. It always cracks me up how shitty I do on offhand shooting yet when I see everyone elses scores mine doesn't look so bad anymore. Its because even though I struggled through the stage and felt bad about my performance it was an equal struggle for everyone else and it makes us all better shooters in the end.

We make it a goal to be done by 12 every month. Sometimes we go over and sometimes we finish early. This goal really limits the time we are allowed to do things. More time equals better stages and more shooting but we don't want to hurt our turn outs because you guys told the wife would meet them at the cafe for brunch if you got to go shooting.

So what did you guys think about the man vs man stage last month? Would you like to see more barricades or more posistional? Or do you love shooting pool balls at 100yds every month? Who's up for a desert style run and gun match this ear? (Be prepared to get your ass whooped and get dirty if you answer yes )

I want to hear your guys opinions but before you answer anything else I want 3 answers-

Do you want it-
a) harder
b) the same
c) easier

What time do you want to leave by?
a) 11
b) 12
C) 1
d) 2
e) I don't care if it means more shooting!!

Are you willing to help out?
a) yes
b) no

I haven't competed in many matches and got my ass whooped every time. Still, I have fun and learn something everytime. Even so, I'd be down for more challenging stages and especially a desert match. I was just thinking about that after seeing the videos from TPRC - I don't know if that was in the desert or at a range but it looked awesome!

khw9mm wrote:I haven't competed in many matches and got my ass whooped every time. Still, I have fun and learn something everytime. Even so, I'd be down for more challenging stages and especially a desert match. I was just thinking about that after seeing the videos from TPRC - I don't know if that was in the desert or at a range but it looked awesome!

Kevin- fail
You didn't answer the questions

-Without sounding too gay, I want it harder.
-Don't care when I leave, because I hit traffic regardless on the way back to SD.
-Yes I could help some.

I think everyone enjoyed the man vs man stage and would like to see more head to head style shooting stages. That type of shooting adds an additional element of pressure, forces you to shoot differently and out of your comfort zone. Although, if you have an old timer shooting against a first timer I think these stages are counter-productive, which I'll address below an option. I for one would prefer barricades and positional because they highlight everyones weaknesses. In fact, think of anything that is difficult to practice, and odds are it will be a good stage. A Desert match "run n gun" would be tits and I'd be down!

That aside, Please don't take my pool balls. Thats the only stage I'm certain of. ;)

One thing that might be considered in the near future is different classes of shooters instead of a mad free for all for 1st place. Top 308 is a derivative of this idea already, but I'm referring to different skill level classes. Novice, Intermediate, Expert, Sharpshooter, Marksman, Ass Master, whatever, etc. The end of year points system could help establish a ranking order possibly, or just allow shooters to classify themselves. The goal, allowing that first year shooter the opportunity to compete and win a class (instead of getting his/her ass kicked every month all year long by Ryan). I find it interesting precision rifle competition is one of the only shooting disciplines that does not do this yet, and probably due to the small number of people who compete.

DirtRacer151 wrote:I want to hear your guys opinions but before you answer anything else I want 3 answers-

Do you want it-
a) harder
b) the same
c) easier

What time do you want to leave by?
a) 11
b) 12
C) 1 if at Angeles
d) 2
e) I don't care if it means more shooting!!

Are you willing to help out?
a) yes
b) no

Answers in red. Plus a desert match!

Do you want it-
a) challenging


What time do you want to leave by?
e) I don't care if it means more shooting!!

Are you willing to help out?
a) yes, but depends on kid's schedule...

1) B. I want it to stay the same till I win top 308 then make it harder

2) IDGAF I will be there as long as it takes (unless Ho wants to go to the ranch side cafe and talk about watches then peace out lol jk)

3) Most definately

Man vs man was cool I think there should be a stage with the same principles in every match. I would like to see barricades as I (and many others im sure) havent been fortunate enough to do so. Also lets got some targets out to 1000 @ angeles man! I'll show up at the crack of dawn and help if need be!

Edit: IN FOR SETHS ASSMASTER CLASS

Swan wrote:-Without sounding too gay, I want it harder

That aside, Please don't take my pool balls. Thats the only stage I'm certain of. ;)

Seth, im not trying to change the world....im just trying to get you to question everything

Btw... it still sounded really gay

Swan wrote:One thing that might be considered in the near future is different classes of shooters instead of a mad free for all for 1st place. Top 308 is a derivative of this idea already, but I'm referring to different skill level classes. Novice, Intermediate, Expert, Sharpshooter, Marksman, Ass Master, whatever, etc. The end of year points system could help establish a ranking order possibly, or just allow shooters to classify themselves. The goal, allowing that first year shooter the opportunity to compete and win a class (instead of getting his/her ass kicked every month all year long by Ryan). I find it interesting precision rifle competition is one of the only shooting disciplines that does not do this yet, and probably due to the small number of people who compete.

AR15barrels wrote:

Yea idk about it either. Sink or swim baby

Juice5610 wrote: Yea idk about it either. Sink or swim baby

Agree... I don't even think we need top 308 since we aren't shooting beyond 500. I also think if we're gonna do top 308s that 223 should be included.

DirtRacer151 wrote:
Agree... I don't even think we need top 308 since we aren't shooting beyond 500.

You shut your dirty little mouth dont you take top 308 away from me! I honestly don't care what I do care about is targets out to 1000. Lets start a steel target fund for the club!!

Even though I still rank at the bottom, I wouldn't mind more challenging stages. The February match was more fun than the January because it was more challenging. I don't mind what time it ends, within reason. And I'd definitely be able to help.

Juice5610 wrote: You shut your dirty little mouth dont you take top 308 away from me! I honestly don't care what I do care about is targets out to 1000. Lets start a steel target fund for the club!!

Should we pass a collection plate at the matches or something? 8-)

DirtRacer151 wrote:
Should we pass a collection plate at the matches or something? 8-)

Ill put down two hunded and fitty dollars of my hard earned money down at the March match to get this ball rolling! ASR! TARGETS TO 1000!!! ASR! TARGETS TO 1000!!! Dont make me make signs and bust out the bullhorn

Juice5610 wrote: Ill put down two hunded and fitty dollars of my hard earned money down at the March match to get this ball rolling! ASR! TARGETS TO 1000!!! ASR! TARGETS TO 1000!!! Dont make me make signs and bust out the bullhorn

Why don't you just buy your own target that you can bring for us to put out far?

Btw if we could sell more shirts the club would get back some money that it needs to buy steel targets guys.

AR15barrels wrote:

Settle down ladies. Just threw that out as an idea to consider. Honestly, if you go "sink or swim", then no there shouldn't be a Top 308 or anything...

.. Just Top Ass Master.

DirtRacer151 wrote:
Why don't you just buy your own target that you can bring for us to put out far?

Btw if we could sell more shirts the club would get back some money that it needs to buy steel targets guys.

Cuz I wanna donate it to the club you ungrateful bastard! + I dont drive a truck. I also have some steel gongs I bought from a calgunner a while back. I've ever used em. Ill post pics later if there's still sunlight when I get home

I've seen a bunch of people in here looking. Do you not have an opinion? Speak up guys!!

I don't care if you answer- c..b...a
just answer something!!

Do I need to post a rolex to get your guys attention?

I think we should keep the difficulty level the same. We have so many different level shooters, no reason kill the fun factor for the majority of competitors. We should be done by 12-1pm to keep it viable. I would love to help out.

So..

1. Same
2. 1pm
3. yes

oh and yes to the desert shoot. love the dirty.

A little harder is good, but also, more innovation. I don't want things to stagnate with the same ol' "in n' out," pool balls, and the like. Usually, I like to be done by 1 or 2 as I have a 2 hour trip home. As far as helping, I don't care if I'm helping one second and shooting the next.

MikeV- so because we have new shooters with a lower skill level we should baby them? Im pretty sure that's why we have clinics for new shooters. Thanks for your input though

One of my main concerns with the way our matches/clincs are done is that they all cater to the new shooter. I want to do advanced clinics for experienced shooters where we all test eachother and expose weaknesses and I want to run matches where we are simulating big matches where it really counts. We can limp the new guys along in the beginers clinics... after that its time to play with the big boys. This isn't about winning or loosing. Its about getting better everytime you pull that trigger and gaining confidence.

Harder!
1-2
of course!

Also agree with what Ryan said I think we need more variation. Not the same old stuff.

DirtRacer151 wrote:MikeV- so because we have new shooters with a lower skill level we should baby them? Im pretty sure that's why we have clinics for new shooters. Thanks for your input though

One of my main concerns with the way our matches/clincs are done is that they all cater to the new shooter. I want to do advanced clinics for experienced shooters where we all test eachother and expose weaknesses and I want to run matches where we are simulating big matches where it really counts. We can limp the new guys along in the beginers clinics... after that its time to play with the big boys. This isn't about winning or loosing. Its about getting better everytime you pull that trigger and gaining confidence.

edit- you already have an answer in mind for your #1 question so I'll refrain from giving my opinion.

We've never had a stage like that before. I want to make some where guys that have their shit together will get %75 hits but even Ryan can brain fart and pull a zero. Im not talking about making things impossible. Just spicing it up a bit to test everyone. Seriously how much skill does it take to hit 1.5" pool balls at 100yds? That's why last month I made you guys shoot it weak side and only gave you 8 rounds to make 8 hits instead of 9. Why should you be allowed to miss 1 shot at a gigantic target an still ft a chance for bonus points? That's crazy to me and is babying in my eyes.

MichaelV wrote:
I don't think we are babying anyone with the stuff we are shooting now. Let's crank it up so the top three shooters feel the heat, screw everyone else.

eta- you can tell how difficult the stages are by the scores people receive- so when the curve starts hitting 75 percent hits on their targets, then add variables to increase the difficulty. It sucks to shoot stages that are artificially made difficult where even the top shooters are are getting 10 percent hits.

yeah you're right don't worry about it..

DirtRacer151 wrote:We've never had a stage like that before. I want to make some where guys that have their shit together will get %75 hits but even Ryan can brain fart and pull a zero. Im not talking about making things impossible. Just spicing it up a bit to test everyone. Seriously how much skill does it take to hit 1.5" pool balls at 100yds? That's why last month I made you guys shoot it weak side and only gave you 8 rounds to make 8 hits instead of 9. Why should you be allowed to miss 1 shot at a gigantic target an still ft a chance for bonus points? That's crazy to me and is babying in my eyes.

MichaelV wrote:
I don't think we are babying anyone with the stuff we are shooting now. Let's crank it up so the top three shooters feel the heat, screw everyone else.

Dunno about screwing everyone else, but

- More risk vs reward stages could possibly help
- KYL style but something different/further (we already have the steel)
- More difficult hostage scenario stages (300-400yds paper?, short time limits for steel hostages with mandatory #shots fired, penalized for a miss as well as hostage hit)
- Quicker time limits overall for most stages
- Harder/further cold bores
- Smaller steel

Somewhat limited at Angeles, I agree. Not a whole lot of movement or run n gun options so variations on current stages are probably our best option? Nothing wrong with the typewriter stage James, other than everyone bitching about not being able to see the letters. Boo hoo, shut up and shoot it.

Seth what position did you finish last month?

Swan wrote:
Dunno about screwing everyone else, but

- More risk vs reward stages could possibly help
- KYL style but something different/further (we already have the steel)
- More difficult hostage scenario stages (300-400yds paper?, short time limits for steel hostages with mandatory #shots fired, penalized for a miss as well as hostage hit)
- Quicker time limits overall for most stages
- Harder/further cold bores
- Smaller steel

Somewhat limited at Angeles, I agree. Not a whole lot of movement or run n gun options so variations on current stages are probably our best option?

MichaelV wrote:Seth what position did you finish last month?

James is asking for ideas regarding stages/COF's. What does it matter what place any of us finish regarding this?

Keeping the same level of difficulty at matches defeats the purpose of having matches. Which is to continually challenge, no?

Swan wrote:.. Just Top Ass Master.

So you think someone can unseat you from your throne?

MichaelV wrote:edit- you already have an answer in mind for your #1 question so I'll refrain from giving my opinion.

Exactly.
He's not looking for honest opinions.
He's mostly looking to justify his.

Swan wrote:
James is asking for ideas regarding stages/COF's. What does it matter what place any of us finish regarding this?

Keeping the same level of difficulty at matches defeats the purpose of having matches. Which is to continually challenge, no?

Actually I'm fine with it for me and you, ryan, randall, brad and james... I was just trying to keep it competitive for the other guys.

I wouldn't want to go against the grain with our crew, let's amp it up. I did really shitty on my wind calls, what if we did longer range stuff. I have a hard time hitting small targets at 600. Maybe something out at distance James?

AR15barrels wrote:
Exactly.
He's not looking for honest opinions.
He's mostly looking to justify his.

Nope...just looking to prove to the few people including you that think everyone will cry if we make things more difficult and keep people and hour or 2 more. I'm tired of the little conversations where everyone keeps hush about it. Nobody ever comes out and says anything. That's why you guys have me

It seems like so far people want to shoot!! Including me!!

Honestly if everyone says they want to leave by 11 and shoot 5 shot groups at 100yds all day long then im ok with that. I obviously knew people want more so that's why I threw it out there for everyone to share their ideas/opinions.

MichaelV wrote:

Actually I'm fine with it for me and you, ryan, randall, brad and james... I was just trying to keep it competitive for the other guys.

I wouldn't want to go against the grain with our crew, let's amp it up. I did really shitty on my wind calls, what if we did longer range stuff. I have a hard time hitting small targets at 600. Maybe something out at distance James?

Well we are limited for distance. I would love to see us use the 400-600 yd berms much more though. That alone will add much of the spice im desiring.

For anyone who's shot the match at WEGC. Don't you agree that its much better only shooting 1-2 paper stages and the rest out beyond 200yds? We don't have the luxury of WEGC but I think we can do better.

DirtRacer151 wrote:
Well we are limited for distance. I would love to see us use the 400-600 yd berms much more though. That alone will add much of the spice im desiring.

For anyone who's shot the match at WEGC. Don't you agree that its much better only shooting 1-2 paper stages and the rest out beyond 200yds? We don't have the luxury of WEGC but I think we can do better.

I've been curious about the distance thing as well. The matches I've shot this year here, which is few, there has only been one stage further than 400yds. Last match the cold bore at 500. In addition, wind has kinda been a non issue lately and possibly extending the targets "out there" may make it more of an influence? Obviously this may require more assistance with setup.

In the back of your head ASR! OUT TO 1000

DirtRacer151 wrote:
Well we are limited for distance. I would love to see us use the 400-600 yd berms much more though. That alone will add much of the spice im desiring.

Then let's set up some 6 inch targets at 600 and 400 for holdovers.

Swan wrote:- More risk vs reward stages could possibly help

Somewhat limited at Angeles, I agree. Not a whole lot of movement or run n gun options so variations on current stages are probably our best option? Nothing wrong with the typewriter stage James, other than everyone bitching about not being able to see the letters. Boo hoo, shut up and shoot it.

I like the risk-reward concept for matches. This way, not necessarily the best shooter would win the matches. And the matches never get old this way, because you can approach the same old target differently if you want to rather than blasting as many targets as possible every time. If a top shooter got greedy, he could end up going from hero to zero. It might be difficult to score out the risks vs. rewards properly, but this is something that could be calibrated over time.

Another thing that might be tweaked from match to match is the different points for each target. For example, take the pool balls. One match might have the pool balls at 200 rather than 100, and if you hit all the solids and the 8-ball, the total points double from 70 to 140 rather than merely increase from 70 to 100. That's a large risk-reward but difficult to get in 60 seconds at 200 yards. The hits or misses would also be much harder to see at 200 yards, which adds to the pressure. If we find that nobody ever goes for the 8-ball because it's too hard at 200 yards, then possibly up the ante by tripling the possible points from 140 to 210. Someone will go for that 8-ball, I assure you. Or, if you want to keep the pool balls at 100 to make setting up the targets easier (which I very much understand), cut the par time in half or something to make the target more challenging. I'm just tossing out ideas here. But i think the current pool ball target is too much of a "gimme" target for the cool hand lukes in our club like Ryan, James, Randall, Seth, etc. Weak side on the pool balls was a great way to add difficulty and also to mix it up. I think there are countless other ways to mix it up as well.

Run and gun isn't possible at Angeles (at least I don't think so), but I thought shooting off the bench or the chairs was a good way to do a poor man's barricade:



I thought shooting off those chairs was a great idea. The chairs are already there too, so there's no need to bring some giant plywood staircase in Randall's truck or something. The chairs are sort of ghetto, but they're good enough I think. Imagine taking a hostage or cold-bore shot off that chair. That wouldn't be easy.

Perhaps we could shoot standing off the concrete bench to simulate shooting off the hood of a car. Again, this is ghetto. But it's better I think than always shooting off the shooting mat with bipod and bean bag for nearly every stage. The concrete bench is already there. We might as well use it somehow.

I thought this target was fine too:



I sure as hell couldn't read it. I have a 10x scope that has fixed parallax at 300 meters. I was in a shitty a position as anyone on this stage. I was shooting Stevie Wonder style on this target. But I got a few hits. And I think it's necessary to experiment now and again to see what works and what doesn't.

I don't think we use the 600-yard line at Angeles enough. I'm not even sure it would be necessary to drive out there and set up one of the club's targets. Very few people at Angeles shoot at the 600-yard targets. The 600-yard line might be a place for man vs. man stages. We wouldn't even have to set up elaborate targets because the targets are already there for us to shoot.

johnlee wrote: I don't think we use the 600-yard line at Angeles enough.

Correction- we have NEVER shot out to 600yds in any of our matches!! I think we may have set up a target at 550 for our night match but not sure.

So you're saying you want it more difficult right John?

Looks like the general consensus is to make things harder. While thats all fine and good, having more inventiveness and variety is also a huge issue. Many people at the TPRC last weekend said "hey, I need to get down to one of your matches." I said don't waste you're time. I'd never drive over 2 hours for the COF that we're putting on right now. Seriously, this is rookie shit. Much of that is a necessary evil of being limited to Angeles. But some of it isn't. When someone comes up with something new and exciting, it shouldn't be crapped on by saying, "thats too hard. They won't like it." Is that what Scott, Kurt, Vu, Frank, et al. say? Just look at this statement:

"The February match was more fun than the January because it was more challenging."

Did Kurt dumb down his match when it started getting popular? I used to compete up there when there were 5 of us total. It grew despite not being easy for noobs.

What exactly are we trying to accomplish with our matches? I think thats the question that needs to be answered. Are they supposed to be training for new guys to compete in bigger matches? Are they supposed to be what we think new guys will like? Are they supposed to challenge even the seasoned shooters? Are they supposed to be a place where we can test and evaluate new COFs that nobody has ever shot before?

Before we answer the above question, I don't think we're ever going to come to an agreement on anything.

DirtRacer151 wrote:So you're saying you want it more difficult right John?

Sure. It's more difficult for everyone so I don't know what the gripe is.

But I'd like to see "more difficult" because of reduced par times or improvised positions or sling only or risk-reward mind fuck or something other than the size of the size of the target. If we shrink the targets down to 3/8" hollow dots on a camouflage background to make them more challenging, it feels kind of shitty. The practical side of the precision rifle game feels lost, at least to me.

Oh, and please don't get rid of Top 308. It's pretty much my only chance of walking away from the match with something other than used brass.

johnlee wrote: I don't think we use the 600-yard line at Angeles enough.

All the targets at ASR are HUUUUGE. They are so big to keep the general public happy. We have no business shooting them during our matches unless were going for the pole/chain holding up the target

Do you want it-
b) the same

What time do you want to leave by?
C) 1

Are you willing to help out?
b) no

rksimple wrote:Looks like the general consensus is to make things harder. While thats all fine and good, having more inventiveness and variety is also a huge issue. Many people at the TPRC last weekend said "hey, I need to get down to one of your matches." I said don't waste you're time. I'd never drive over 2 hours for the COF that we're putting on right now. Seriously, this is rookie shit. Much of that is a necessary evil of being limited to Angeles. But some of it isn't. When someone comes up with something new and exciting, it shouldn't be crapped on by saying, "thats too hard. They won't like it." Is that what Scott, Kurt, Vu, Frank, et al. say? Just look at this statement:

"The February match was more fun than the January because it was more challenging."

Did Kurt dumb down his match when it started getting popular? I used to compete up there when there were 5 of us total. It grew despite not being easy for noobs.

What exactly are we trying to accomplish with our matches? I think thats the question that needs to be answered. Are they supposed to be training for new guys to compete in bigger matches? Are they supposed to be what we think new guys will like? Are they supposed to challenge even the seasoned shooters? Are they supposed to be a place where we can test and evaluate new COFs that nobody has ever shot before?

Before we answer the above question, I don't think we're ever going to come to an agreement on anything.

I pick this one- "Are they supposed to challenge even the seasoned shooters?"

We have all seen the Top Sniper shows on TV. Let's be honest... we can't do it...BUT!! If i was given the opportunity to participate though i surely would. I would get my ass whopped SOOOO bad but i'll guaran-damn-tee you guys i'd have the time of my life and i'd come back a much better shooter. The same applies for our matches and our new shooters.

When i was riding a lot it was a common practice to not just go on the beginners track and bang bars with the sucky guys. I gained the most knowledge by going onto the pro tracks and getting spanked!! Eventually after following them around long enough you find a pace, then you get comfortable, then your flying off the biggest jump on the track right next to them!!

johnlee wrote:
Sure. It's more difficult for everyone so I don't know what the gripe is.

But I'd like to see "more difficult" because of reduced par times or improvised positions or sling only or risk-reward mind fuck or something other than the size of the size of the target. If we shrink the targets down to 3/8" hollow dots on a camouflage background to make them more challenging, it feels kind of shitty. The practical side of the precision rifle game feels lost, at least to me.

Oh, and please don't get rid of Top 308. It's pretty much my only chance of walking away from the match with something other than used brass.

John....i don't agree with small targets either. it really doesn't reward anyone except for the gun with the most money in his gun. Reasonable sized targets with other tricks is the route we need to take.

Juice5610 wrote:All the targets at ASR are HUUUUGE. They are so big to keep the general public happy. We have no business shooting them during our matches unless were going for the pole/chain holding up the target

Well, I think it depends on what you're using the targets for. For a cold-bore shot at the giant boar, the targets might be too big. But for a man vs. man rapid-fire stage from slung prone, they might be suitable.

johnlee wrote:
Well, I think it depends on what you're using the targets for. For a cold-bore shot at the giant boar, the targets might be too big. But for a man vs. man rapid-fire stage from slung prone, they might be suitable.

I didn't enjoy the unsupported prone one bit! Hahaha. I need to practice that.

I hate to say but "Top 308" doesn't make much sense in our matches. The Top 308 was invented because 6 and 6.5mm bullets have such an advantage at 600+ yards. Inside of that my GAP 308 matches my RR .260.

roypark wrote: I didn't enjoy the unsupported prone one bit! Hahaha. I need to practice that.

but that's why it's a good stage for you! I missed every shot at TBRC in unsupported prone. It was the first time i'd shot it. After seeing that weakness and lots of practice it's probably my 2nd fav position behind seated.

MichaelV wrote:I hate to say but "Top 308" doesn't make much sense in our matches. The Top 308 was invented because 6 and 6.5mm bullets have such an advantage at 600+ yards. Inside of that my GAP 308 matches my RR .260.

yep...i agree