Sniper's Hide Cup Roll Call!

buffybuster · Post by **buffybuster** » Thu May 24, 2012 7:50 am

ReligiousShooter wrote:What is the difference of annealing brass on the target? Less fliers? MOA to .5 MOA? What's the real world pay off?

That's the $64,000 question.

What is commonly accepted thought is annealing will provide more uniform seating pressure, which hopefully results in more uniform neck tension, which hopefully will result in smoother bullet release which hopefully will result in reduced ES of velocity which will hopefully reduce vertical dispersion on the target...

While there has been some anecdotal stories, I haven't seen any real empirical data on whether annealing brass does what is believed it does. But as the saying goes: "The winners are doing it so I must do it too."

Where annealing is a KNOWN benefit: Just like OEM brass, which is all annealed after it is formed. If you're doing some heavy caseforming, necking down, necking up or blowing the shoulder out (really working the brass), then annealing can be important in stress relieving and reduce the number of lost cases during forming and extend the life of the formed cases.

DISCLAIMER: In precision shooting, there are too many variables to be able to determine with a high degree of confidence the veracity of a single or combination of variable factors impact or effect on a multi-variable system to any certainty.

DirtRacer151 · Post by **DirtRacer151** » Thu May 24, 2012 8:06 am

I love how Henry explains things.

I personally don't think it will equal jack squat on target. Too many times I've gone out with unfavorable reloads and been impressed with their performance. In our discipline if our worried about a cunt hairs more consistency while dangling your rifle from props and your heart pounding through your chest then my hats off to you. I sure as hell can't hold that steady without a fancy rest.

Shit.. Henry doesn't even weigh charges!!! I've been getting lazy and just dumping charges myself lately and have noticed my rifles shoot just the same inside 500yds. If I plan to shoot further ill use the chargemaster.

buffybuster · Post by **buffybuster** » Thu May 24, 2012 8:24 am

DirtRacer151 wrote:I love how Henry explains things.

I personally don't think it will equal jack squat on target. Too many times I've gone out with unfavorable reloads and been impressed with their performance. In our discipline if our worried about a cunt hairs more consistency while dangling your rifle from props and your heart pounding through your chest then my hats off to you. I sure as hell can't hold that steady without a fancy rest.

Shit.. Henry doesn't even weigh charges!!! I've been getting lazy and just dumping charges myself lately and have noticed my rifles shoot just the same inside 500yds. If I plan to shoot further ill use the chargemaster.

James,

Believe it or not I've given this some profound thought and I determined, for me, weighing charges will not provide greater accuracy. Here's my reasoning, if you're interested:

When you are "weighing" charges you are actually using a secondary measurement, as you are actually trying to fill a VOLUMETRIC measurement by weight (this also assumes your scale is 100% accurate all the time with no drift). So you're using the specific weight to equate to a target volume. The reason for this is you are trying to fill the case with a specific energy content. However you are ASSUMING the energy content for the powder & primer are constants (can't really control that) and ASSUMING the volume to weight ratio remains constant. I figure if I can tune my powder MEASURE to the same VOLUME I want, which falls into the published charge WEIGHT range, I will at least be using a first order measurement and not a secondary one.

It's like measuring the outside of casenecks to determine the inside diameter; it's innately inaccurate as you're introducing another variable. People neckturn to minimize this variable but you CANNOT eliminate it. Why not use precision gage pins (+/-0.0001") and measure the inside neck diameter directly instead? That's what I would do........... if I want to REALLY chase precision.

But we like to see all those numbers and it makes us feel better that we're being more "precise" if not more "accurate". Remember in high school science class about Significant Figures and the accuracy of a system. Because I have a calculator that shows 12 decimal places, it MUST be more precise........... doesn't it?

Post by **AR15barrels** » Thu May 24, 2012 12:12 pm

Throwing more volumetrically consistent charges is more art than science.
Throwing more weight consistent charges is more science than art.
I also agree that volume consistency is probably more important than weight consistency, but I'm just not as good an artist as I am a scientist so I will continue to weigh charges.

buffybuster · Post by **buffybuster** » Thu May 24, 2012 12:19 pm

AR15barrels wrote:Throwing more volumetrically consistent charges is more art than science.
Throwing more weight consistent charges is more science than art.
I also agree that volume consistency is probably more important than weight consistency, but I'm just not as good an artist as I am a scientist so I will continue to weigh charges.

Yes, there definitely is a "voodoo skill" in being able to throw charges consistently. I'm still a novice.

Post by **Gnzrme** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:14 pm

Ok, bags are packed, I ready to go, ammo's done, I am on to the show.... Leaving on a jet plane for Denver tomorrow morning and then drive 3 hours to Douglas, WY. All gun related items are stored in the checked bags so I hope that I will not get the Dr. Kerr treatment.... Wish me luck..

Short Action Precision · Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:45 pm

Forgot to ask if you got 2 locks for the case?

ReligiousShooter · Post by **ReligiousShooter** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:07 pm

Good luck and represent. Remember... NO RETREAT, NO SURRENDER!!!!

Post by **Gnzrme** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:08 pm

Yes... all taken care of... Each bag is at the limit. I have 2 checked bags with one of them being the rifle case and then my suitcase and my carry on... 2 of them are right at 50#'s with the ammo and everything....

Post by **Gnzrme** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:09 pm

ReligiousShooter wrote:Good luck and represent. Remember... NO RETREAT, NO SURRENDER!!!!

Thank you Gordon.. Actually there are 4 of us attending. Me, Ray, Henry and Joe V. but I am the only one doing the trainup...

Post by **Gnzrme** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:40 am

In Denver

luvtolean · Post by **luvtolean** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:14 pm

In NorCal we shoot on paper 800/900/1000 every month. Most of the top shooters have found real differences in their waterline at those distances shooting annealed and not annealed brass. Most seem to think you should do it every 3 firings.

I was having vertical stringing I wasn't getting when I started shooting out there and it was driving me freaking crazay as I've been putting in time practicing, been improving my reloading and should be getting better. But the first couple of matches, I was shooting factory Hornady ammo.

So I cherry picked out only once fired brass for last month's match and changed nothing else, bam, best looking target and score ever.

I'll be buying an annealer.

Post by **Gnzrme** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:52 pm

I have shot annealed brass. It never beyond 600, so I do not know what difference it's going to make, but I will try almost anything once...

gau17 · Post by **gau17** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:01 pm

Good luck Steven. Be safe.

Post by **Gnzrme** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:35 pm

Thank you Solomon. There is brush fire burning close to us. Hopefully it will not affect us. It is burning in the opposite direction. Thanks for all your help prepping for this match

Teletiger7 · Post by **Teletiger7** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:55 pm

Steven,

Whats the wind doing?

buffybuster · Post by **buffybuster** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:13 pm

Teletiger7 wrote:Steven,

Whats the wind doing?

It's WINDY and SHIT!

Post by **Gnzrme** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:35 am

It's less today... About 10mph and the temp is 82 instead of near 100. But it is going to warm up for the weekend. This is going to be a difficult match. It's going to belong to someone that can range quickly and read the wind well. There are alot of up and down drafts based on terrain and it's going to mess people up.

We are spending the days engaging targets at random distances and various positions and today we are walking a mock field stage with limit lines and time limits.

Have shot as close as 100 yards (haven't done pistol Trainup yet) all the way out to 1400 yards! Yesterday the wind was sustained at 20 and I was holding 18 MOA OF WIND AND STILL MISSING!!!! Very switchy and very little direction indicators. But I am having a blast

Post by **Gnzrme** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:36 am

Joe. I will see you tonight. Hey call the hotel and let them know Henry will be here 1st

Post by **Gnzrme** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:37 am

So you guys that are not here and want to see field shooting stand by and I will try to post some pictures

Post by **Gnzrme** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:44 am

There are many hillsides and valleys that we are going to be shooting from. The owner of this property has 7000 acres that is is letting SHC and thunderbeast Arms use monthly for matches so I might be coming back. This is an awesome place.

Teletiger7 · Post by **Teletiger7** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:44 pm

7000acres! that explains why well be driving from one stage to another. Shooter is telling me that im subsonic at about 1250. Hope theres no targets out that far :/

Post by **Gnzrme** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:37 pm

Ok day one is over. I pulled my calf muscle on my leg running up a hill and now I am having difficulty walking and standing.

Match Is fun. Targets are small, no bigger than 2MOA, are VERY DIFFICULT to locate and the time to find, range and engage your targets is only 5 minutes. Could be as many as 10 targets to find and there are other targets on the range that belong to other matches/stages. Our group is doing ok the wind is kicking some of us in the ass. (308....). So far longest shot in the match is 1150 on a 16" plate for us but there is more long distance coming. There are no dot drills, cold bores or KYL's at this match. It appears that the match is not full.

2 more days. Hope my leg holds up... I would hate to drop out... Will keep you guys updated

Short Action Precision · Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:29 pm

Hang in there Steven! Ice up when you get back from the strip club!

264Charlie · Post by **264Charlie** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:50 pm

Each day is a new day at a match.

Sent from my iPhone.

264Charlie · Post by **264Charlie** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:58 pm

Steven, be glad your not in WA. They had MOA ranging stages out to 900.

Sent from my iPhone.

Teletiger7 · Post by **Teletiger7** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:22 pm

We're marinating Stevens leg in Icy, hot pads for 24 hours and wrapping his leg up in an Ace Wrap and hes taking some pain meds. It should be numb enough to be functional tommorow, but hell be limping along. It shouldnt really get in the way of actually shooting but it might get in the way of being able to make to the staging areas and shooting positions. Match is tough. Format is completely different from what were used to. They give you 5 minutes for each stage but they could have as many as 10 targets that you need to find on your own. Some are well hidden. Theres a good amount of walking around with all ur gear on.

Radiation Shooter · Post by **Radiation Shooter** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:24 pm

Short Action Precision wrote:Hang in there Steven! Ice up when you get back from the strip club!

LOL
Let us know if they smell pretty.

gau17 · Post by **gau17** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:37 pm

Hang in there Steven. Stretch it out.

Post by **Gnzrme** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:52 pm

I am trying, but I could barely get my boot off my foot...any stretching of the calf brings pain and its weak and I cannot bear full weight on the leg... I fell down on my ass climbing up a hill and ended up bending a pair of Stoney Point Shooting sticks... Just goes to prove that fat guys should not exercise... they should be sendentary....

Post by **Gnzrme** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:55 pm

Radiation Shooter wrote: LOL
Let us know if they smell pretty.

They would probably smell like cattle or feed over here.... There is not one night club or lively bar in town... Just the Double D liquor store that has a drive through....

Post by **Gnzrme** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:00 pm

Also forgot to tell you guys that I got pullled over 2x's in 9 hours by the highway patrol. Once on the way to pick up Joe at the airport for driving with my high beams on and not dimming them for oncoming traffic (11:30pm) and then the next day at 8am for stopping in the median waiting for Ray and Henry to catch up to us... again the WY highway patrol, 1st time was a Sargent and the 2nd was a LT. Both times got off with a warning.. As I pulled away, 2 more patrol cars came around the corner and gave me a 2nd look... I swear, I will never rent a red car again....

Tackman11 · Post by **Tackman11** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:57 pm

How's lucky!!!

Post by **Gnzrme** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:00 am

Lucky is going to have to sit out the day. It's all hiking up and down hills and you cannot drive close to the shooting points like you could yesterday. Tomorrow looks like its a little easier Will see

robert hode · Post by **robert hode** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:05 pm

Gnzrme wrote:Lucky is going to have to sit out the day. It's all hiking up and down hills and you cannot drive close to the shooting points like you could yesterday. Tomorrow looks like its a little easier Will see

Toradol! ;)

Post by **Gnzrme** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:49 pm

VICODIN.... but... Do not drive while taking vicodin....

robert hode · Post by **robert hode** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:23 pm

Gnzrme wrote:VICODIN.... but... Do not drive while taking vicodin....

Based on your luck with the local popo, you shouldn't drive while drinking a Coke.

Post by **Gnzrme** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:47 pm

You are right Bob

264Charlie · Post by **264Charlie** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:52 am

TEAM GA took home a 10th and a 13th.

Sent from my iPhone.

264Charlie · Post by **264Charlie** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:34 pm

Steven, you did not finish the math? WTF.

Post by **Gnzrme** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:11 pm

No. I was unable to climb up/down the hills safely. If they had a chopper, they could have dropped me off at each individual spot, then I would have been ok, but alas, that was not possible. So I had to drop out. Sucks as I only got to shoot 4 stages 3 of which I was shooting low. Ray came in 21st, Henry came in 30 something and joe came in 60 something. The match was very demanding physically and skill wise. The top 308 came in 40th out of 78... I was not ready for this match physically and I ended up getting hurt. I think it was wise not to push it and risk a further injury. As it was, I fell later in the day trying to get up a small hill...

Oh well, better luck next year

This is what my leg looks like today 6 days later... Swollen and i have torn the calf muscle so it's all tight and difficult to walk correctly

gau17 · Post by **gau17** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:36 pm

Fuk you need a pedicure! Hope you feel better. I would love to try something like that next yr!

264Charlie · Post by **264Charlie** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:54 pm

Big matches are hard. Wait tell the Grind it's going to be, well, a GRIND.

ReligiousShooter · Post by **ReligiousShooter** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:03 pm

Dayuum!

buffybuster · Post by **buffybuster** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:25 pm

This years Hide Cup wasn't held at any type of range facility at all. It was held on a working ranch; the owner allowed the match to be run through some of his ranch property. There were no facilities to speak of, there were no roads (other than the one main dirt road which you couldn't park) or trails to speak of, it was quite hilly with lots of loose rocks, shale, cow patties everywhere, blowing fine sand and no shade. You had to carry ALL your gear for the day and all your water too, from stage to stage and complex to complex; a lot more walking, through uneven terrain, than most people anticipated. It wasn't a gutcheck, but it was more physically rigorous than the usual.

Steven had a bit of bad luck; he was rundown by the train up (my observation), the approx mile hike, geared up, to the stages and the loose footing running uphill from the staging area to the shooting area (on the clock) made him take a bad step. At least that's what it looked like to me.

We'll know better for next time.

gau17 · Post by **gau17** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:53 am

Henry - Any report on shooting aspect? How did you do on wind / locating & milling targets? What was the most challenging part for you?

buffybuster · Post by **buffybuster** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:21 am

gau17 wrote:Henry - Any report on shooting aspect? How did you do on wind / locating & milling targets? What was the most challenging part for you?

The match is very time compressed. You're placed in a marked staging area for each stage. In the staging area you can try looking for targets. The staging area is always well away from the shooting area and also from a different perspective. Some targets are visible from the staging area and some are not. Also, just because you can see a target from the staging area doesn't mean it's your target. All the targets are dark black (nothing is painted). You can try and read the wind but since you don't know your shooting orientation, it's difficult to make a correct call from the staging area and the wind will probably change by the time you get up to shoot. The shooting area is unimproved, there's nothing flat or even about it... it's just a place where they drove a big nail into the ground.

You have 5min to find, range and engage the targets. All the RO will tell you is "This is your Left and Right Limit, your time starts now."

The challenge is:
You don't know what to expect (especially during the first day)
You don't know what you'll need, so you pack everything... that gets heavy and you can't find what you need.
5mins goes much faster than you expect
Targets are sometimes fucking SMALL and hidden
Sometimes you still can't see targets even when you're in location, because you have to be in another position to see them.
You have from 100yd to 1200yds to range and find targets.
Sometimes you're already tired from carrying all your shit from stage to stage.
The wind in the afternoon sucked. The sun in the morning sucked
Most stages give you one chance to re-engage for half points, others are only one engagement.
Pistol stages required you had to carry all your gear and your rifle during the stage.
It's 5K ft altitude and there's lots of hills and gullies.......and I'm out of shape.
Shooting .308Win you are at a clear disadvantage. The ranges are too long and the wind is too strong and it's difficult to get a good range on the targets at long range.

Looking forward to doing it again.

Teletiger7 · Post by **Teletiger7** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:23 am

Steven,

What did your manager say when you walked in to work limping and with your tan?

p.s. The Depot has good steaks and sandwiches.Also, we picked up something from the prize table for u.

ReligiousShooter · Post by **ReligiousShooter** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:01 pm

Are they planning to have it in Wyoming again next year?

buffybuster · Post by **buffybuster** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:22 pm

ReligiousShooter wrote:Are they planning to have it in Wyoming again next year?

I believe so, if they get all the agreements worked out.