I'd love a top .260 category! Can we do that??

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What exactly are we trying to accomplish with our matches?

Training for big matches

Are they supposed to be training for new guys to compete in bigger matches?

Yes and no - We don't have offical training days outside of our new shooter clinics so the only time we actually get practice in match conditions is at the match. The training is not necissarily geard toward the new guys but to guys that have completed the the new shooter clinics and are interested in competing.

Are they supposed to be what we think new guys will like?

No they should reflect the skills needed to be competitive in big matches. You aren't always going to like the stages you have to shoot.

Are they supposed to challenge even the seasoned shooters?

Yes. The COF should challenge everyone.

Are they supposed to be a place where we can test and evaluate new COFs that nobody has ever shot before?

Ideally we could test one or 2 new COF's in a match. Some matches may not have anything new it all depends on the match director.

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What if we did different "Top" catagories each month?

Like "TOP SPEED" - the fastest 5 shots on 5 steel targets.

"TOP LONG SHOT" Most accurate long shot on paper.

"TOP SLING" Best slung shot(s)

"TOP PRONE" Best prone shot(s)

"TOP GROUP" Best group.

"TOP MONEY SHOT" Uh you know...

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I agree with ryan about more innovation. If you need any help building anything such as barricades or anything to shoot over or off of then let me know. I have access to a shitload of tools and a good amount of know how on building things.

I would like to see the stages get a little more challenging. The harder you make it the more we learn.

I don't care at all how long we stay there as long as i get home for work on monday.

I will help out in any way needed in order to make the matches work out.

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Pain is just weakness leaving the body.

Team Camarillo

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Kevin H.

Its hard to do certain things at ASR because of the nature of having to shoot from the line while others patrons are shooting there also.
If it were somehow possible, I think it would be great to have:
More movement where the shooter has to move from one shooting position to another, shooting from unsual improvised positions and adapting to various types of support.
Get the shooters heart rate up.Transitions to/from pistol.
Moving target/moving shooter.
I understand some of the above may not be possible at ASR but something to keep in mind if ever possible.

What's the feasibility of holding matches at the spot??

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Kevin H.

how about joining forces with another club like BBRC. Their range with a CPRC COF, seems like it would be a good time.

Gary's matches on their own are pretty cool, you've got precision 100 yds, unknown distance, 600 yd movers, 1000 yd steel, obstacles, and some run and gun stuff with pistol and rifle.
And don't forget about Mark's at WEGC, hopefully he'll be up and running soon with the range.

I'm surprised not more of the CPRC members participate in these matches.

Randall and I have discussed using Desert Marksman for ranges and all the things discussed here are available there. Steel at 1k and everything in between including up close, pistol, 3 gun, etc. The Board at Desert Marksman has preliminarily approved this pending a written proposal. Hint, Randall.

I'd also like to see some of the matches shot on Saturday. This is probably the single largest thing keeping me from membership as well.

1. Harder
2. Anytime. Hell James and I spend more time driving to and from than we do shooting/helping
3. Obviously I would

From what Ive read so far Ive only read that creating a more challenging and creative match is in order. Im tired of the typical grab bag of COF's that have been used lately (minus February). We almost need to start a thread dedicated to people throwing out COF ideas that they have had, I think we would be surprised as to the ideas some members may have. Get creative people.

1. Id like to see them harder. I want to be over, not under prepared for big matches.
2. 1ish
3. Happy to help, if I can.

". . . he who honors Me, I will honor . . ."

To be honest, if people want to be challenged, they need to shoot different matches. You can show up at angeles every time and do pretty well but that doesnt tell you much about your shooting skill. All it says is you have good short range dope for angeles. Drastically cut the par times on the stages at angeles and it will become more challenging. It should be difficult to get all your rounds off in the time limit.

Oh, and stop handing out courses of fire before matches.

Training for the big matches? The ones that fill up in less than 10 seconds? The ones that even top shooters have trouble getting into?

Maybe our local matches should be the goal. Even if you are good enough for "the big matches" what are the odds of getting in?

Take the best stages from "the big matches" and rotate them into our local one. Same skill set on a smaller scale.
Look at ranges like Desert Marksman (yes I know its far) where we might be able to reserve a day and set our steel anywhere out to 640 yards with only our guys shooting, and having cease fires when we want them.

Chris, Calling Chris

I want to make a point.

The "Club" has only officially existed for 2 months.
The "Club" has only recently started purchasing more and more steel targets.

The fact is there has been a lack of props and targets to make interesting and more challanging stages.

Other clubs have been around longer then we have and we can't forget that. Its going to take commitment from members and the board to make things work. We can't expect it to happen overnight.

With new steal to incorporate into matches the match directors (board members) can mix things up.

Examples:
January's match had times exposures - this was an awesome and challanging stage
February's Match had the man on man stage - very very awesome

Rather than having a bitch fest about the matches being to easy or to hard its more helpful to contribute specifics examples of what is to easy.

I have yet to see that from anyone.

James - I pose the question above to you. What is to easy about the matches?
Ryan - Why do you tell people you wouldn't drive 2 hours to our match? Ask yourself what you would change and then make it happen.

You two are both board members and can do more to improve the matches then any regular members comments here.

Ok, so I will shoot myself in the foot and say, lets step up the difficulty, but maybe not on a level with TPRC. I like having the COF in hand to figure out dope and plan the stage. I also like the 100 yard targets because they are easy to see...(I am having problems with vision) I am willing to stay longer and I can help out more if needed.

As far as Desert Marksman, we should be able to figure out something, but it may be difficult to get the entire rifle line. If I recall correctly, there is something scheduled every w/e of the month.....(I will have to check the newsletter)

Maybe we could give a share of our proceeds to the club as range fee.... All things that need to be discussed by the board and the presentation made to the excom of Desert Marksman....

Oh Chris, can regular members attend the excom meeting but not participate...?

All, please keep in mind we are a young club and there is a lot still in the works. A lot of work has been put into getting things going but still there is more that needs to be done. We have more steel already ordered. We're working on getting dedicated storage at Angeles. We've discussed building new props, but getting those props built or adding much more steel isn't plausible until we have a place at the range to store it all.

For those interested in having club targets past 400 yards, fear not, that's being discussed as well but there are issues that need to be worked out. If you're not familiar with the Eagles Nest, there is a range to the left of the rifle line which fires across the range left to right so when we go out to 400 yards to bring in steel we have to coordinate a line brake with them to do so. If we have steel at 400, 500 and 600 that takes time to pull stakes out of the ground, get them all in trucks and get back. That's a long time to be holding up all of the rifle line as well as eagles nest, so keep in mind that Angeles is sharing the range with us and we need to be gracious guests. We're working on the proper solution to that problem as well.

However, as far as targets past the 600 yard berm, a large fire break would need to be cut and maintained and so on and so forth which takes additional money and significant man hours.

Everyone take a moment and think about our matches about 6 months ago. Probably half of our attendees were brand new shooters without any match experience at all, if we started out with hard COF's things would not have gone well because we'd have people that wouldn't want to come back. Now that we have actual membership, more refined training, and more people shooting we have fewer new guys who would be put out by a difficult match. The club is growing, things are moving in the right direction but they do take time. New stuff will come, new targets, new stages, new props, etc.

If everyone wants to raise their membership dues by about 400 dollars each annually we could put together a meager salary for me, I'll quit my job and stuff would get done lickity split. Until then, I assure you I'm not the only one with very sparse free time to work a lot of this stuff out.

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Harder more challenging COF with movement and limited time (Enough of 100yd paper punching! Maybe 1 COF at 100yds for positional shooting)
Finish around 1pm
Yes I would help setup sometimes

When is your next match at Angeles?
Can we drive our trucks up range to carry steel targets to the 600yd line in the morning before the line goes hot ?
Can we drive up range at 1pm or when we finish to pick up our steel ?

Thanks

Do you want it-
a) harder
b) the same
c) easier

What time do you want to leave by?
a) 11
b) 12
C) 1
d) 2
e) I don't care if it means more shooting!!

Are you willing to help out?
a) yes
b) no

OK the way I look at a monthly match is it's training for everyone. It's about getting ready for the big matches. That said the number one issue with a monthly match is the Coldbore shots. The new guys are never 100% sure of their zero and the experienced guys might not have had time to get to the range after cleaning ect. I have seen, on more than a few occasions, someone have a "bad" match to not having proper zero. Additionally, they never really get to see what happens in the first few shots out of the gun from CB. I think we could increase the "fun" and make the stages harder by allowing the group to zero.

Other issues I see with our match is we provide too much prep time and shoot inside of 400 way too much. On steel stages shooter should get zero prep and should stay off the guns. We are spoiled with dialing parallax and finding targets ahead of time. Other matches don't run this way. If you have an issue, mags not loaded, can't find a target guess what you zeroed the stage. As for shooting outside of 400, at ASR winds are light and mainly in-line with the shooter. This is doing us all a disfavor, we should be shooting 1.25 MOA targets to counteract this. Yes the hit count might be lower but it would be lower for everyone.

We also need to crack down on ND/AD or people arguing with spotters or line officers. Really in big matches it's not accepted and you will lose points if you try.

I don't see the need for Top308 at all. We don't do Top10x Scope, Top223 or TopAR. We all have choices of what to shoot and inside of 600 it does not really matter anyway. The difference between a 308 and 260 in full value wind is only 6". The guys that are truly as a disadvantage is anyone shooting a cheap scope. If anything let make a TopCheap Scope dog-tag.

Lastly, the matches should not cater to the lowest common shooter. They should be challenging for the best shooter and the rest of us need to catchup. I don't see too many new guys stepping up to run the line, attend RO classes, shoot big events, and donate steel. The matches are put on by good shooters and should be shot by them too.

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Team GAP, Shooter #7
Draining squares and banging steel

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Han Chung

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United States Marine Corps 1997-2005
2/3 Scout Sniper Platoon 1999-2002
3rd Marine Division Scout Sniper Instructor 2002-2005

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Team GAP, Shooter #7
Draining squares and banging steel